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So, my opinion is a bit outside the norm. As a biologist, I realize that an embryo is a far cry from a human child. As a man, I believe that a woman should be absolutely in charge of what she allows to grow within her body. I also believe that adoption is a far better choice than abortion but again, a woman should be the one to decide that. The government should have no say in this matter. I really don’t feel like debating this set of ideas, but it fits with my overall philosophy of government staying out of my personal life.
 

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So, my opinion is a bit outside the norm. As a biologist, I realize that an embryo is a far cry from a human child. As a man, I believe that a woman should be absolutely in charge of what she allows to grow within her body. I also believe that adoption is a far better choice than abortion but again, a woman should be the one to decide that. The government should have no say in this matter. I really don’t feel like debating this set of ideas, but it fits with my overall philosophy of government staying out of my personal life.
If you didn't feel like debating your ideas, why preface with credentials and then state them?

If it is the government's role to ensure the rights of life, liberty, and property(as all powers of a just government serve to do), then how can you pretend that the life of the human inside the mother is not due the same protection?
If a child's own mother won't protect its life, who will?
 
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Ok… I really try to stay out of politics on any social media platform whatsoever. But here is something I would care to share. I feel I must express both of my points of view, mine and the God I serves. As a human being with no influence whatsoever from my beliefs here is how I feel. I am a father of 5 ( I am with my wife and all of our kids are with us under one roof.) Before I had children the biologist kauboy quoted above a views were pretty linear with mine. The moment I held my first child, everything changed. There is nothing more innocent, more perfect than a newborn child . I won’t get into nomenclature of when an embryo is a child but I know it damn sure resembles a baby at that 4 month ultrasound. I have a family member( non-nuclear) who is radically pro-life and some of the abortion procedures they shared with me actually took my breath away. The fact that as a society there is someone willing to do that to a developed child inside the mothers womb embarrasses me of humanity as a whole. As a man I do believe in morals and do feel anger towards the “dr’s” who took the Hippocratic oath and are willing to do these procedures. I know pregnancy can be terrifying and my heart does break for the Rape case scenario . I swear it does my heart breaks for those women as much as it does for the children. But people it’s a child. Regardless of conception, if that baby isn’t aborted it could come out , you could hold it , look into it’s eyes teach it , love it , raise it, and who knows. I hate to be brutally honest and if I’m banned from this platform so be it . But abortion is ide say about 10,000xs more likely to be used as a method of contraception than this rape scenario that is so quickly brought up by pro choice enthusiasts. I’m sorry it just is . I’ve been in the city’s man don’t tell me . Don’t sit from behind a computer screen in middle suburbia. Go into the city’s go by some of these clinics. Get to know some of the people who these PRO-CHOICE People claim to represent. ( who when I see demonstrating on the television are all white college kids) I’m not making this racial there is no race in my eyes for real I’ll tell you one thing socioeconomic status to me I see color. The wealth discrepancy in this country racially is disgusting. I’m white and Hispanic how dare you . Drive through a city of poverty man tell me what colors you see . Listen black and Hispanic people have the most values I’ve seen in a long time. Yea we may act a little different from white people at the dinner table, but in general , as a whole, we revere god . I bet our percentages of people believing in higher powers is 10xs that of Caucasian. And the Bible is clear on beliefs of abortion and we know that. A lot of abortions from minority is from poverty. For real . Scared people with nowhere to go no one to offer a hand. I’ve seen both sides of the equation my whole life . I will tell you man stop bleeding this money funding planned parenthood and help fix our cities! How does it take me , a nobody to say it. I know how a lot of people look down on minorities . Politicians raped minorities, if you deny that. I don’t even waste my breath on you. Suppression is real , gentrification is real. You know what the media makes it seem like all minorities are Democrats. Ha it just shows how out of touch they are . They share a lot of the same views we do on capitalism! They feel they just haven’t got a chance ! BEWARE THE POLITICIAN. Who actually does what he says and gives them one .


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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Thank you @Daduate for speaking your mind, I doubt anything will happen to you for doing so. Except maybe starting an argument in the comments. I am White and Hispanic too and I also find that Hispanics culturally are more spiritual than your average American. That being said I have been fortunate to belong to a diverse diocese with Poles, Ukrainians, Italians, French men, and Irish men as well as Hispanics. All of us praying to the same God. At one time in our history we were all segregated. Each race choosing between three different catholic churches. But now we are one body of Christ.
 

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The movement seems more “pro-birth” to me. “Pro-life” would seem to dictate a greater emphasis on education, health care, environmentalism, anti-war, etc. I don’t hear a lot of pro-lifers talking about how they are supporting these babies they’re “saving” after birth, during their “life”.
 

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If people weren't forced to pay for so many unnecessary things (such as multiple mansions, buttlers, maids, private jets, and private security guards for a single politician), we would have more than enough to go around, to pay for things that actually matter (such as finding good homes for children that are unwanted by their selfish, irresponsible, biological parents).
 

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I don’t hear a lot of pro-lifers talking about how they are supporting these babies they’re “saving” after birth, during their “life”.
That's probably because it isn't their responsibility. It's the responsibility of the people who created the baby.
I don't take responsibility for any other poor decisions they may make, why would I do so for this one?
It's a pretty simple stance...
"Don't kill innocent humans."
Or more simply, "pro-life".
;)
 

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I don’t hear a lot of pro-lifers talking about how they are supporting these babies they’re “saving” after birth, during their “life”.
They don't have to. The feds take care of more and more of those each year. Last report I heard was pushing 70% of the population. Cradle to grave, food, housing, education, even clothing in many cases, the feds supply many needs. Granted that if more abortions are allowed, then that frees up the money for those crossing the border.
 

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That's probably because it isn't their responsibility. It's the responsibility of the people who created the baby.
I don't take responsibility for any other poor decisions they may make, why would I do so for this one?
It's a pretty simple stance...
"Don't kill innocent humans."
Or more simply, "pro-life".
;)
You’re proving my point. It seems to me that as soon as the fetus has completed it’s trip through the birth canal, the collective moral obligations for “life” from the “pro-life” movement evaporates and morphs into “personal responsibility”. Maybe “pro-fetal life” or “pro-birth” would be a little more accurate…. My point isn’t that anyone should take responsibility for others’ actions, but if they are “pro-life”, they should support more causes that enrich and support the living.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
@theprincipal
The only way to make a baby is by having sex. People have sex then are surprised when they get pregnant. They want all the fun of being an adult but none of the responsibility. This new American generation wants the government to take care of them and their children. But they forget that our government is "of the people for the people" if no one lifts a finger to contribute government will fail. Look at what policy's are popular here in the U.S.: spending money, borrowing money and reducing taxes all at the same time. It doesn't take an economist to figure out why the national debt is so high.
I am sure these children will be taken care of and given food, shelter, and education. If not by the government then by Non-Government Organizations NGO's. It won't be the best there is to offer but these NGO's have a proven track record. That is why so many pro-life organizations support these NGO's.
 

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Thank you for bringing this to my attention Annie. I spoke with my head priest and he told me to be on watch online for something like this I am going to call him now. VIVA JESUS
The Jews are receiving a lot of attacks these days. I understand they're coming up with protocols for their temples. We should do the same. So much hate in the world these days. It's sad.

 

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You’re proving my point. It seems to me that as soon as the fetus has completed it’s trip through the birth canal, the collective moral obligations for “life” from the “pro-life” movement evaporates and morphs into “personal responsibility”. Maybe “pro-fetal life” or “pro-birth” would be a little more accurate…. My point isn’t that anyone should take responsibility for others’ actions, but if they are “pro-life”, they should support more causes that enrich and support the living.
Are you trying to make a semantics argument, or a moral one?
The purpose of the pro-life movement is, as stated, "don't kill innocent humans".
Argue semantics all you like if it makes you feel better. It doesn't change the movement's purpose.
 
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Are you trying to make a semantics argument, or a moral one?
The purpose of the pro-life movement is, as stated, "don't kill innocent humans".
Argue semantics all you like if it makes you feel better. It doesn't change the movement's purpose.
In your terms, I would ask how the movement pushes their “don’t kill innocent humans” stance beyond being pro-birth.
 

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In your terms, I would ask how the movement pushes their “don’t kill innocent humans” stance beyond being pro-birth.
Pro-life individuals simply seek to end the killing of innocent humans.

A pretty clear example of the pro-life doctrine was applied during the Terri Schaivo case.
That woman, through no indication of acceptance given by her, was executed via starvation while her own parents were kept out of her hospital room by guards stationed to ensure she received zero food or water.
There was national outcry at the notion that a husband could unilaterally control the life of his disabled wife, and that her own parents had no say.

I know you really want to twist this into a "society should pay" argument, and are attempting a logical argument correlation in order to get there, but it's a false premise.
The decision to engage in the only activity that can lead to pregnancy is a choice made by two people who bear FULL responsibility for the result.
Protecting the innocent life created SHOULD be their primary focus. But when it is not, others step in to try to do so.
Protecting the life is separate and apart from bearing financial burden. Someone out there is willing to bear that burden on the parent's behalf via adoption. We only ask that the child, and those adoptive parents, be given that opportunity... and the innocent human to not be killed.
 

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Pro-life individuals simply seek to end the killing of innocent humans.

A pretty clear example of the pro-life doctrine was applied during the Terri Schaivo case.
That woman, through no indication of acceptance given by her, was executed via starvation while her own parents were kept out of her hospital room by guards stationed to ensure she received zero food or water.
There was national outcry at the notion that a husband could unilaterally control the life of his disabled wife, and that her own parents had no say.

I know you really want to twist this into a "society should pay" argument, and are attempting a logical argument correlation in order to get there, but it's a false premise.
The decision to engage in the only activity that can lead to pregnancy is a choice made by two people who bear FULL responsibility for the result.
Protecting the innocent life created SHOULD be their primary focus. But when it is not, others step in to try to do so.
Protecting the life is separate and apart from bearing financial burden. Someone out there is willing to bear that burden on the parent's behalf via adoption. We only ask that the child, and those adoptive parents, be given that opportunity... and the innocent human to not be killed.
I made no indication that financial burden should be shared. I simply stated that life extends beyond birth and that for the “pro-birth” group to be truly “pro-life”, they should fight for causes that are promoting life consistently.
 

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I made no indication that financial burden should be shared. I simply stated that life extends beyond birth and that for the “pro-birth” group to be truly “pro-life”, they should fight for causes that are promoting life consistently.
And I gave an example.
If you can find other instances where innocent lives are being lost, and can find nobody opposing the action, I'd like to know about them.
 

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And I gave an example.
If you can find other instances where innocent lives are being lost, and can find nobody opposing the action, I'd like to know about them.
If you are indicating that the only cause/position that you can think of that saves lives and promotes life is being anti-abortion, then there is really no reason for us to converse.
 

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If you are indicating that the only cause/position that you can think of that saves lives and promotes life is being anti-abortion, then there is really no reason for us to converse.
Nice try, but that isn't what I said.
You claim that pro-life people are only focused on births.
I asked you to provide any instance where innocent human lives are being lost and there is no advocate group fighting against the atrocity, and you cannot produce one.
Pro-life people speak out against senseless killings of innocent people all the time.
 
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Nice try, but that isn't what I said.
You claim that pro-life people are only focused on births.
I asked you to provide any instance where innocent human lives are being lost and there is no advocate group fighting against the atrocity, and you cannot produce one.
Pro-life people speak out against senseless killings of innocent people all the time.
Maybe we can start with the list of advocacy groups you are part of and go from there… or even the threads you comment on in which you speak against senseless killing.
 
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