Protect and Serve?

5892 Views 41 Replies 19 Participants Last post by Moonshinedave, Aug 27, 2013

Prepadoodle

Discussion Starter · Aug 22, 2013

More cops out of control...

21 - 40 of 42 Posts

PaulS

· #21 · Aug 23, 2013

Both people interacting in the video had multiple options to keep the situation cool. The kid (if not in age, emotionally) could have held his anger in check, stepped back when the officer moved in, and asked for the assistance they were there to provide. Both cops could have kept it cooler too, by not advancing into his space, by splitting up to check out the rest of the story, and by being less defensive from the start.

How would I have responded to the kid? I really don't know, I might have done exactly the wrong thing - and I am trained to counsel so there you have it. Emotions get into whatever we happen to be doing. It takes a very special person, with exceptional training, to go into an agitated confrontation without letting it get to them.

I treat cops with guarded courtesy - I am assertive but I try not to be confrontational. They have a tough job to do and those that do it well (most of the time) have my respect.

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Lucky Jim

· #22 · Aug 24, 2013

Police-baiters are all over youtube, they've got a hang-up about authority figures, maybe they should see a shrink, ha ha..

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PalmettoTree

· #23 · Aug 24, 2013

YouTube is going to make it hard for some of these guys to get good jobs.

Lets assume the guy in the video is a college grad looking for an entry level salaried job.

Usually there are 3 to 5 candidates that make it past the HR screen. When that happens it is interview. Over a period of two weeks all will be called for a full day's worth of interviews. Three to five of us would each take a turn showing the candidate around our area explaining fit and responsibilities for what we do. And at the end of the day each will give a thumbs up or down.

When everyone has had their day we would get together to pick.

Now if on that day one of us had stumbled on, told of, etc. that video; he would never get past the interviewing team.

vandelescrow

· #24 · Aug 24, 2013 (Edited)

The Kid was in the wrong "do you know who I am?", but the police were also, escalating the situation to physical violence where a calm voice could have defused the entire situation. The police need remedial training in how to deal with people. Protect and "Serve", they need to learn allot about customer service.

Teenager with an ego needs to be punched in the face, chest knelt on and handcuffed vs. a calm attitude? Looks like a clear case of assault to me. And the police dare to mention possible charges against the kid where he "actually" did nothing wrong. Yes his voice was agitated but wouldn't yours be? Not because the police but because what happened up to that point.

I.E. your at a bar, some drunk sucker punches you. Are you going to be angry or totally calm and collective? Later when talking with the police, your still angry over it, you probably have been dwelling on it, (I should have done this or that) getting your self angrier. Your treating the police as humans but there is still a tone in your voice. Police should be trained to recognize this is Human Nature and is not being intentionally directed at them.

The Police is probably the first person the victim spoke to and just needs a release valve to "verbally" vent. Think I'm wrong on this? Do police carry a stuffed teddy bear in their cruiser to calm down children? Don't adults need/deserve the same? Not a teddy bear but you know what I mean.

Having my fingers curled in is much more comfortable then having them flat at my sides, call it arthritis. In the military standing at attention your fingers are curled clutching the seam of your pants. I guess to a cop that's clenched fists and just cause to physically assault me?

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Meangreen

· #25 · Aug 24, 2013

vandelescrow said:
The Kid was in the wrong "do you know who I am?", but the police were also, escalating the situation to physical violence where a calm voice could have defused the entire situation. The police need remedial training in how to deal with people. Protect and "Serve", they need to learn allot about customer service.

Teenager with an ego needs to be punched in the face, chest knelt on and handcuffed vs. a calm attitude? Looks like a clear case of assault to me. And the police dare to mention possible charges against the kid where he "actually" did nothing wrong. Yes his voice was agitated but wouldn't yours be? Not because the police but because what happened up to that point.

I.E. your at a bar, some drunk sucker punches you. Are you going to be angry or totally calm and collective? Later when talking with the police, your still angry over it, you probably have been dwelling on it, (I should have done this or that) getting your self angrier. Your treating the police as humans but there is still a tone in your voice. Police should be trained to recognize this is Human Nature and is not being intentionally directed at them.

The Police is probably the first person the victim spoke to and just needs a release valve to "verbally" vent. Think I'm wrong on this? Do police carry a stuffed teddy bear in their cruiser to calm down children? Don't adults need/deserve the same? Not a teddy bear but you know what I mean.

Having my fingers curled in is much more comfortable then having them flat at my sides, call it arthritis. In the military standing at attention your fingers are curled clutching the seam of your pants. I guess to a cop that's clenched fists and just cause to physically assault me?

First off police are not in customer service business because the customer isn't always right in law enforcement work. Second save the drama for your momma, I'm not your outlet and I can't fix in a few seconds what you took a lifetime to screw up. You can't vent on law enforcement. As for the clinched fists, you don't want to react to an attack; you want to prevent it from happening. If that takes placing a person in cuffs or placing them on the ground where they can reevaluate their actions, so be it. When in law enforcement you can't lose control of the situation and you can do this by being professional and keenly aware of your surroundings and the people you are dealing with.

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SARGE7402

· #26 · Aug 24, 2013

Meangreen is absolutely correct. Law Enforcement like fire fighters and rescue people are not in the customer service business. You want customer service, then go to McD's.

Secondly the video takes place after the cops arrive. There's nothing to indicate what their dispatcher told them before they arrived on the call.

Also most places a call for an assault in progress is a high priority call - not as the "victim" said taking an hour to respond.

And you don't know if both parties called and the call taker passed along both sets of information to the responding officers.

Lastly you only heard the "victim's" "side of events. You wouldn't think his version of events might have been a little bit one sided?

6811

· #27 · Aug 24, 2013 (Edited)

Mic said:
The cop was a dick - period. He wasn't the only one, but he was on duty and supposed to act as a professional.
LEOs interact with people a million times a day. I'm guessing 99.9% of their interactions are professional.
This was not one of those times. When the punk decided to get an attitude, the officer should have been a professional - he wasn't.

if you watch the video, soldier boy came off a little tough when he told the cops that it took them 45 minutes to respond to his call. when it was explained to him that they were not on his time watch, he stepped up while the cop was walking to him. he then puffs his chest out and says " US Soldier". He gets very close to the police and invades his space. when he stepped up to the police and declared that he was a soldier, it was then that he needed to be controlled and brought down to the ground.

When you casually tell a police that you are a service man, it means you are simply telling him/her that you served. once you step up and close in on him and get in his face while saying you are a service man, you are basically telling him that you have military training and capable of taking out the police. same thing if you tell the police that you are an MMA fighter, black belter in martial arts or a boxer. you say that to them in a hostile way, you will go down.

so there you go, the police was very professional. he took him down, once under control and he calmed down the issue was handled and his call for service, Im sure was taken care of. that's how Pro's do it. now, if you really want to find fault on the cops, we could say that he should have never said he was a Marine. it was not neccessary and it sounds like he was trying to come off as a better soldier because he was or is a Marine. I would have told the guy that information later on once everything has calmed down and not during the confrontation.

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BigCheeseStick

· #28 · Aug 24, 2013

Rigged for Quiet said:
I can't get past the fact that the Cop was the one who did indeed step up and get in the guy's face, then seemed to get pissed the guy didn't cower in deferance to his obvious authority.

I was one of the lucky senior NCO's at an installation who got 6 weeks of training and the pleasure of riding around with DOD cops once or twice a month for the simple reason the DOD cops had developed a habit of just this type of behavior when interacting with certain active duty members. We even got a Federal badge under Article 10, woohoo.

The problem was the DOD guys developed a habit of antagonizing certain people while hiding behind their badge and the knowledge that if the member reacted in any way it could be a career ender. They simply got off on bullying men who could kill them in a second and not lose a minute of sleep over having done so, which was a real concern as the reports piled up with collaborating witness statements. Turns out a DOD cop is easier and cheaper to replace, lol.

EDIT: I should add not all the DOD guys were douche bags, but there way too many who were in that instance.

When I was in the service I started dating a girl who after I got my third speeding ticket on base in two weeks told me her ex-boyfriend was an SP (base cop). When I got the last ticket and had to go to my first shirt to explain, he even asked who I pissed off. I told him what was up, mr. ex-boyfriend disappeared, and I never got another ticket even when I WAS speeding!

The idea of having a witness ride along with cops is GREAT IMO! Hard to act like a fool and think your God when you've got somebody you KNOW is going to see the whole thing!

vandelescrow

· #29 · Aug 24, 2013

Meangreen said:
First off police are not in customer service business because the customer isn't always right in law enforcement work. Second save the drama for your momma, I'm not your outlet and I can't fix in a few seconds what you took a lifetime to screw up. You can't vent on law enforcement. As for the clinched fists, you don't want to react to an attack; you want to prevent it from happening. If that takes placing a person in cuffs or placing them on the ground where they can reevaluate their actions, so be it. When in law enforcement you can't lose control of the situation and you can do this by being professional and keenly aware of your surroundings and the people you are dealing with.

With that attitude, that is why more and more people despise the police. You took the entire post I made out of context due to two words. Typical of police mentality.

Give someone a badge and a gun they think they are god, everything they say is fact and if you disagree, your beet down till you agree. That is evident in this video with how many "Do you understand me?" were said by the thugs standing behind their badge.

Cop took the first swing, that's assault. To be decided by a jury of your pears.

FYI: In the military if you fail your tech school, you are put in a less technical career. If a cop fails his school the only less technical career available is a cook. If a cook fails they are unfit for military duty and discharged. Don't believe me, look it up for your self and make your own conclusion.

bigdogbuc

· #30 · Aug 24, 2013

vandelescrow said:
With that attitude, that is why more and more people despise the police. You took the entire post I made out of context due to two words. Typical of police mentality.

Give someone a badge and a gun they think they are god, everything they say is fact and if you disagree, your beet down till you agree. That is evident in this video with how many "Do you understand me?" were said by the thugs standing behind their badge.

Cop took the first swing, that's assault. To be decided by a jury of your pears.

FYI: In the military if you fail your tech school, you are put in a less technical career. If a cop fails his school the only less technical career available is a cook. If a cook fails they are unfit for military duty and discharged. Don't believe me, look it up for your self and make your own conclusion.

I don't think I'm God. I don't "beat people down" until they agree with me. I think we can agree to disagree on this one as there really isn't any need to insult those of us here that do have badges and guns, who took the oath we did to protect our communities, our country and the constitution. I guess, until you've walked in our shoes, or landed in the E.R., or under a surgeons knife (I have) and have the experiences that we have, you'll never understand it.

As Meangreen stated, we have to keep the situation under control. That's our job. If we don't, then chaos follows and I can guarantee you would be one of the first ones saying "Why aren't the Police doing anything?" In controlling a situation, we have to use and have been granted the lawful ability, to use that force which is reasonable and necessary in order to control that situation. This is achieved by everything from simply being present (as in just standing there with a dumb look on our faces), to verbal commands, all the way up to lethal force.

Even many of the supporters of what this officer did have made it clear, that yes, perhaps he could have done some things differently. However, this falls into my earlier statement about having 2.067 seconds to make a decision, and everyone else having the luxury of sitting around for 18 months critiquing that decision while watching the video over and over and over again.

As I said, walk a mile in our shoes and perhaps you'll be enlightened a little bit. And, as anyone on this forum can tell you, I am a huge opponent of over-reaching police powers, "SWAT-Mania", excessive use of force, violation of constitutional rights or the militarization of police. In a nut shell, "This ain't it".

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Prepadoodle

Discussion Starter · #31 · Aug 24, 2013

By examining situations like this in detail with the luxury of being removed from the immediate danger, we can learn valuable lessons which will serve us well if faced with a similar situation on the streets. If this can help even one cop to diffuse a situation before resorting to such tactics, it has not been a waste of time to talk about.

I would gladly let that kid get punched in the face 100 times if it would encourage the small minority of "god" cops to think about their actions before acting the way that one acted.

The fact that nearly all of the civilians thought the cop's actions were extreme while nearly all of our cop members saw nothing wrong with the way the situation was handled points to a serious problem, at least in my opinion. The police work for us, the civilians, and we set the guidelines that control their allowable responses to situations. And no, we as civilians, don't have to sit there and take it. This isn't a police state yet.

And again, I say that I do respect the police, and won't let the actions of a small minority taint the reputation of a mostly noble breed who put their lives on the line everyday to protect us. However, I still say that the small minority of police who refuse to toe OUR line need to be held accountable for their actions.

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Meangreen

· #32 · Aug 24, 2013

vandelescrow said:
With that attitude, that is why more and more people despise the police. You took the entire post I made out of context due to two words. Typical of police mentality.

Give someone a badge and a gun they think they are god, everything they say is fact and if you disagree, your beet down till you agree. That is evident in this video with how many "Do you understand me?" were said by the thugs standing behind their badge.

Cop took the first swing, that's assault. To be decided by a jury of your pears.

FYI: In the military if you fail your tech school, you are put in a less technical career. If a cop fails his school the only less technical career available is a cook. If a cook fails they are unfit for military duty and discharged. Don't believe me, look it up for your self and make your own conclusion.

I don't believe I'm God, I leave that to my brother the Doctor. I'm not a cop but a federal agent and you say I'm typical of police mentality because of what I took from your post. What did I miss? My attitude? Sorry I didn't give you a teddy bear. I served in the military and passed my MOS school. I have served for 14 years in so far in my agency without reprimand, disciplinary action, or formal complaint. I have received the highest award from my agency, the Newton-Azrak. I don't feel power from my badge and gun but responsibility and the humble foundation laid by the others that lead before me.
It would seem that Vandelescrow that you have had run ins with the law and probably spent some time behind bars and was discharged from the military with a less than honorable discharge, or I'm I taking what you wrote out of context?

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Meangreen

· #33 · Aug 24, 2013

Prepadoodle said:
By examining situations like this in detail with the luxury of being removed from the immediate danger, we can learn valuable lessons which will serve us well if faced with a similar situation on the streets. If this can help even one cop to diffuse a situation before resorting to such tactics, it has not been a waste of time to talk about.

I would gladly let that kid get punched in the face 100 times if it would encourage the small minority of "god" cops to think about their actions before acting the way that one acted.

The fact that nearly all of the civilians thought the cop's actions were extreme while nearly all of our cop members saw nothing wrong with the way the situation was handled points to a serious problem, at least in my opinion. The police work for us, the civilians, and we set the guidelines that control their allowable responses to situations. And no, we as civilians, don't have to sit there and take it. This isn't a police state yet.

And again, I say that I do respect the police, and won't let the actions of a small minority taint the reputation of a mostly noble breed who put their lives on the line everyday to protect us. However, I still say that the small minority of police who refuse to toe OUR line need to be held accountable for their actions.

In the academy we have the trainees go through scenarios that are video taped so that their actions can be reviewed by training officers and the trainee him/herself. Law enforcement work isn't always pretty and the police in this case handled it in the way they thought was appropriate. We can argue all day on the video piece by piece but the fact is the kid seemed intoxicated and approached the police in the wrong way. It would seem that most people see this video and respond with emotions instead of the facts on what is viewed. I don't know what you do at work but I doubt you stand for demeaning, insulting language and people getting in your face. Why should it be any different for law enforcement?

Meangreen

· #34 · Aug 24, 2013

I reviewed the video again and it would seem that the supposed soldier had a very drastic change in attitude by being taken to the ground. I think it would be the same reaction I would have if I had talked to my father in the same way. the police officer telling the kid that he was talking to a US Marine was justified in the fact that a US Marine is a superior life form. I do believe he was dealing with an ARMY soldier, in other words a Ain't Really a Marine Yet

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vandelescrow

· #35 · Aug 25, 2013

Meangreen said:
It would seem that Vandelescrow that you have had run ins with the law and probably spent some time behind bars and was discharged from the military with a less than honorable discharge, or I'm I taking what you wrote out of context?

I was not going to respond to any more of this thread because it's turned into a name calling, but to set the record straight, I have never been arrested and I am retired Air Force. Served over 20 years honorably.

Meangreen

· #36 · Aug 25, 2013

vandelescrow said:
I was not going to respond to any more of this thread because it's turned into a name calling, but to set the record straight, I have never been arrested and I am retired Air Force. Served over 20 years honorably.

Name calling? Really you are a sensitive one.

Ripon

· #37 · Aug 25, 2013

I only watch to the point of the take down. Did you see what the man taken down did in the seconds before? Do you know what his hands were doing? Does any one here? This video is not complete evidence and does not illustrate what the perpetrators were doing, doesn't even illustrate his head or face at that point. For all we know he assaulted the officer, tried to head but him or both.

People shouldn't expect perfection from LE. There are nearly 800,000 law enforcement officers in the United States. You aren't going to ever see perfection with that kind of sample group.

PaulS said:
The cop in this situation escalated the situation when he moved closer to a man who was already upset. If he hadn't stepped forward facing the issue it would have been easier to diffuse the situation. He could have simply told the guy to sit down while he checked on the story the other guys had. Then armed with both sides of the story he could have given some options to whomever was more wrong. He could have cited the ones who hit the other guy (or used it as a threat) and told the guy with the split lip that he had no choice but to get his gear and clear out. It wouldn't have put the cop in the position of a "jack booted thug" and the whole situation might have been resolved.

When in a confrontation the last thing a cop should do is escalate the situation. The get classes on that sort of thing. (or used to)

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Moonshinedave

· #38 · Aug 25, 2013

I am not a police officer, nor have I ever been, Ok the guy was running his mouth, and being an asshole, but IMO the police officer was a little too fast to hit him, I'd say at the very least one warning to back off, was called for. there were after all two cops there, so it wasn't like anything was close to getting out of hand. Looked to me like the police officer was way to quick in engaging in a pissing contest with the guy and used unnecessary force to show he was the alpha dog.
A lot of police officers are totally out of hand IMO these days, maybe they feel they have to be, with the people they deal with, or maybe its just a power rush? It does say "to protect and serve" on their autos, but to some, they feel they are a class above the rest of us, this is not all police officers, probably not even most, but the shame is, a few of the assholes make it hard of all the rest trying to do their jobs.

Ripon

· #39 · Aug 25, 2013

I live in a city of 200,000 people. We suffer a good deal of criminal activity in that city. We have homicides, robery, we were once known as the car theft capital of the country, and yet there are 4X that number of police officers in this country and some how people are expecting them all to be perfect little angels there for them the second we call. Again in this video what did the young man spouting off in his mouth do with his hands in the seconds before he was slammed? Can you answer that? If you can then perhaps your complaint about the officers actions in this one case is justified, but if you can't answer that question why do you formulate a critical opinion of the officer in this case? If that man made an aggressive move with his hands he deserved exactly what he got.

Look up "Manteca police shooting" in California - I think its on youtube. The man made a "move" back towards his vehicle with his hands and got killed by the police officer for it. In an instant.

Congress takes years to make laws,
Judges interpret them in days or weeks,
Cops get a few seconds if they are LUCKY.

Moonshinedave said:
I am not a police officer, nor have I ever been, Ok the guy was running his mouth, and being an asshole, but IMO the police officer was a little too fast to hit him, I'd say at the very least one warning to back off, was called for. there were after all two cops there, so it wasn't like anything was close to getting out of hand. Looked to me like the police officer was way to quick in engaging in a pissing contest with the guy and used unnecessary force to show he was the alpha dog.
A lot of police officers are totally out of hand IMO these days, maybe they feel they have to be, with the people they deal with, or maybe its just a power rush? It does say "to protect and serve" on their autos, but to some, they feel they are a class above the rest of us, this is not all police officers, probably not even most, but the shame is, a few of the assholes make it hard of all the rest trying to do their jobs.

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Moonshinedave

· #40 · Aug 26, 2013 (Edited)

Ripon said:
I live in a city of 200,000 people. We suffer a good deal of criminal activity in that city. We have homicides, robery, we were once known as the car theft capital of the country, and yet there are 4X that number of police officers in this country and some how people are expecting them all to be perfect little angels there for them the second we call. Again in this video what did the young man spouting off in his mouth do with his hands in the seconds before he was slammed? Can you answer that? If you can then perhaps your complaint about the officers actions in this one case is justified, but if you can't answer that question why do you formulate a critical opinion of the officer in this case? If that man made an aggressive move with his hands he deserved exactly what he got.

Look up "Manteca police shooting" in California - I think its on youtube. The man made a "move" back towards his vehicle with his hands and got killed by the police officer for it. In an instant.

Congress takes years to make laws,
Judges interpret them in days or weeks,
Cops get a few seconds if they are LUCKY.

I stand by my post, I stated in my first post the guy was a butthole, but the officer was no better. I re-watched the video, I still maintain the office was way too eager to engage in a dick-measuring contest, and I am sure having his buddy right next to him, having a gun, and the law on his side did nothing to make him any braver. I made it clear, or at least I thought, that I don't judge all police by the actions of this one person. With that, I find nothing in my post I wish to retract.
PS " If you can then perhaps your complaint about the officers actions in this one case is justified, but if you can't answer that question why do you formulate a critical opinion of the officer in this case? Was it not the police running his mouth about meeting a marine, do you consider that very professional? I don't, I see it as one jackass with a badge meeting one jackass without one.

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