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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As a Brit who knows zilch about guns, what do you think of Arnies cannon (below)?
It seems to be a pump-action shotgun with the barrel and stock sawn down for ease of handling and concealment under a coat.
In films it certainly seems to have awesome stopping power by blowing people clean off their feet through the nearest plate glass window!
Is that just hollywood hokum, or do such weapons have a valuable role in home defence or whatever?

 

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They do have a great purpose in home defense. As far as I'm concerned, a 12 ga is the BEST all around home defense weapon. It might not be the same as on tv but a 12ga 00 buck at close range will knock a man off of his feet!! All while turning him into soup!!
 

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UIt will be easier to hide and maneuver but will also be a little harder to control being sawed off.. As long as you can handle the weapon, I see no reason to worry about it. I used to (cough cough) have a few around that were cut down and were excellent weapons.. People will say that you will lose your range and that is correct. If you are indoors, it wont matter much because you should be plenty close toy our target. Once you get outdoors and start getting some distance between you and your attackers, you will want a longer barrel..
 

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Looks like it was once an 1887 Winchester to me, but I am not an expert and have no personal experience with them.
 

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Not sure about his shot gun but I wish anyone that tries to stand up to one of our HD shot guns luck and peace in their next life.
I met him when he paid us a visit a couple times. Have some pictures of him with a real AK47.
Hd short range a 12Ga will get the job done it don't have to look badass to do it.
 

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I watched a cop get hit with a load of buckshot at a distance of about five feet. He was wearing his vest (a good thing) and the shot doubled him up and he backed out of the way but he was not seriously injured. He did go to the hospital and he spent the night to make sure the internal bruising was not going to present any complications but he was released the next day and returned to work two weeks later. I did not see it but another officer told me that his belly looked like it had been hit with a sledge hammer a few times.

You have to understand the laws of physics - for every action there is an opposite and EQUAL reaction. That means if the bullet is going to pick someone up and out them through a window the same thing would happen to the shooter.If you take the mass of the projectile (I use pounds but you can use the metric system and multiply it by the velocity in feet per seconds then the mass of the target (stationary) then you can figure out the acceleration of the target in feet per second if the bullet doesn't penetrate or bounce off. IF it penetrates through the target then only a portion of the momentum is transmitted to the target. If it bounces back then the target actually absorbs more momentum the difference in which can be measured by the mass of the bullet and its recoil speed.

For the 12 ga. it goes like this:
1 1/4 ounces of lead or .078125 pounds at 1400 fps = 117.1875 foot pound seconds of momentum (scientifically it is divided by 1/2 G and called slugs) Continuing on... the target which weighs 230 pounds is hit with 117.1875 foot pound seconds it will accelerate him to .50951087 feet per second, or roughly a half foot per second. He will be shocked and may fall or he might recover and after a half step back look at you. This would be a good time to hit him in the head with your next shot.
 

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IMO any shot gun with a pistol grip on the rear with no stock is nothing but a movie prop.
Add that to a lever action all show no real go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Thanks guys, I'm no expert but my beef with shotguns is that I think they'd only be effective at shortish range because the ball of shot disperses and loses it's stopping power at longish range, especially a short-barrel job like Arnie's, meaning you have to get up real close to a home intruder to do him harm, maybe too close for comfort..
This 2011 Egyptian protester illustrates shot dispersal after taking a spread of Army buckshot at longish range, it's not life-threatening but obviously painful, and he's in for more pain later when they start digging out each pellet one by one..;)

 

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A 20" Mossie 500 or 590 with a Choate top-folding stock is the best of both worlds. Folded, it doesn't get in the way of anything.
Unfortunately, they aren't shown on their website any more.
Of course, check your local laws about "assault shotguns". :???:
 

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What is "long range" for a shotgun? I know from my own tests that at 100 yards the 00 buckshot covers a 6 foot (or slightly more) pattern of loose hits. If a deer was standing in the center of that pattern it may or may not be mortally wounded. At 30 yards with a modified choke and smaller shot (9,8,7.5, an #6) the pattern is about 36 inches. The smaller shot (#8 & #9) the pattern is denser and progressively opens up with the larger shot (meaning larger spaces between the pellets) because in the same weight of shot there are fewer large pellets. At 30 feet, the same rounds fire into a 12" group and at 15 feet the 5.5-6" pattern is one large ragged hole. Think of it as a 10 pound hammer hitting the person at twice the speed that you can swing a splitting mall. That is the impact from a rooms distance away. It will tear a hole big enough to put your fist into and spread out as it goes in. The time between your first shot and the targets recovery gives you a chance to fire again. A direct hit to the head will not likely penetrate the bone. It will instead snap the targets neck, most likely killing him instantly. If the shot does not kill him he will be blind and hurting from the injuries to his face, teeth, nose and head.

Using a shotgun with shot in it is a messy way to kill but a hit to the chest or stomach will stop an intruder just from the brute force applied. If he keeps coming then you will have time for a second shot.
 
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I agree, it looks more like #4 shot "turkey shot" more than buckshot.. I have always said that number #4 is probably the best choice for inside the home protection. I will do all the damage you need and not have to really worry about it going thru walls and killin someone in another room.
 

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What is "long range" for a shotgun? I know from my own tests that at 100 yards the 00 buckshot covers a 6 foot (or slightly more) pattern of loose hits. If a deer was standing in the center of that pattern it may or may not be mortally wounded. At 30 yards with a modified choke and smaller shot (9,8,7.5, an #6) the pattern is about 36 inches. The smaller shot (#8 & #9) the pattern is denser and progressively opens up with the larger shot (meaning larger spaces between the pellets) because in the same weight of shot there are fewer large pellets. At 30 feet, the same rounds fire into a 12" group and at 15 feet the 5.5-6" pattern is one large ragged hole. Think of it as a 10 pound hammer hitting the person at twice the speed that you can swing a splitting mall. That is the impact from a rooms distance away. It will tear a hole big enough to put your fist into and spread out as it goes in. The time between your first shot and the targets recovery gives you a chance to fire again. A direct hit to the head will not likely penetrate the bone. It will instead snap the targets neck, most likely killing him instantly. If the shot does not kill him he will be blind and hurting from the injuries to his face, teeth, nose and head.

Using a shotgun with shot in it is a messy way to kill but a hit to the chest or stomach will stop an intruder just from the brute force applied. If he keeps coming then you will have time for a second shot.
I've got a Rem 870 with Mod Choke. Using 3" High Brass / High Velocity 00 Buck shot I can get the entire pattern inside of 18" (roughly) at about 35 to 40 yards. Shot patterns spread (give or take a little depending on gun/shot combo) about 1" per yard traveled. So between my front door and my back door (longest distance inside my house) I have 30' or 3 yards - that's 3" of spread. Still plenty tight to be useful in an HD role with minimal collateral damage.

Beyond 45 to 50 or 60 yards yo need to be using a Turkey Load and a turkey choke like a Jelly Neck. By the way - #4 and #5 Turkey Shot (about the size of a 17 to 20 cal BB) makes an outstanding defensive load. Turkey loads have hotter powder and more projectiles (less wadding to make up the gap), but they do make a second shot a little harder since they kick so damn hard.

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30 feet is ten yards not three..... So you would have a 10" pattern. It could still be a solid hit.
 

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30 feet is ten yards not three..... So you would have a 10" pattern. It could still be a solid hit.
You are correct - math aint be my thing aneeways. ;-)
 

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A shotgun at close range can be devastating. If you trained are fast hard hits relatively easy. You mount a pistol grip instead of a buttstock and I have seen clean misses at astoundingly close range. I even saw one video of a guy with a pistol gripped shotgun with a mounted laser missing time after time at the same range and targets that were being taken by his fellow shooters men and women with full stocks on their shotguns with ease. Subjective opinion Hollywood is a poor place to learn weapons craft.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Incidentally, I swear I read about "fragmentation bullets" a while back but I don't think that's their real name, so i can't do a google search.
And I don't remember if they're for shotguns, rifles or handguns.
Basically the bullet splits into 3 parts as it leaves the barrel and the parts began to spread out slightly so there's a good chance that at least one part will hit the target.
Even if the other two parts miss, the third is capable of hitting with lethal force.
It means of course that if the target is fast moving or at a longish range you don't have to spend precious seconds lining him up exactly in your sights, you can just point and shoot knowing that you can't really miss due to the spread effect, a bit like a shotgun.
Do such frag bullets still exist or what?
 
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