[inceptor]

On another thread a comment was made:

Give me a platoon of fearless Christians every time..
"I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath..they come from faraway lands..to destroy the whole country..and destroy the sinners within it" (Isaiah ch 13)

His opinion began an attack.

It seems to me that the trend or "politically correct" way is to attack Christians. This country was built on Christian principals. Our founding fathers were made up of a majority of Christians. There have been a few who twisted Christianity to there own purpose but the majority of Christians are good, honest people. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that all must be converted, killed or made to pay tribute. But it's not politically correct to attack that religion. In fact the trend is to embrace them.

All one has to do now is state they are a Christian and the attacks begin. So much for freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

 

[rice paddy daddy]

Now that the socialist Barack HUSSIEN Obama has been re-elected, expect this these attacks to accelerate, as the enemies of liberty and freedom have been emboldened.

 

[Fuzzee]

Times are changing that's for sure and more people everyday are pushing away from Christianity. Beliefs are changing and Christianity is rigid in it's belief in part and has had and still has control over people's lives in what they do and can't do that aren't Christians. Why wouldn't many be pissed off about it and be drawn to strike back. Times are changing, we're going to have to change with them.

 

[Lattice]

I attack no one. But I don't suppose that you were directing that comment at me.

Yes, there are some restrictions in place that need to be removed. But you still have freedom of speech. But like exercising all rights, there are sometimes consequences.

As for this country being founded on Christian principals. I highly disagree. The religions of the founding fathers were as diverse as the populace today. They founded this country on principals that people of all faith, or lack there of can appreciate.

The founding fathers were Christians, Deists, Agnostics, Atheists and many other religions. If this country was formed on Christian principals then you would also have seen other aspects to its law. You see nothing in the laws written then that were not also illegal in the other various world religions.

 

[Alpha-17]

As for this country being founded on Christian principals. I highly disagree. The religions of the founding fathers were as diverse as the populace today. They founded this country on principals that people of all faith, or lack there of can appreciate.

The founding fathers were Christians, Deists, Agnostics, Atheists and many other religions. If this country was formed on Christian principals then you would also have seen other aspects to its law. You see nothing in the laws written then that were not also illegal in the other various world religions.

I gotta disagree with you on these issues. While there were Deists, Agnostics, and even a few out right Atheists among the group of men known as our "Founding Fathers", for the most part they were Christians. The idea that a large number were Deists and Agnostics was started after the fact by members of those groups. For example, Patrick Henry (famous for his "give me liberty, or give me death" speech), was claimed as a member by various Deists groups during the later years of his life. Henry, far from accepting this, was insluted that people would belive this about him, and fervently denied it. (there's a quote, not sure on it's accuracy, that's says Henry "would rather be considered a Tory than a Deist"). Other founding fathers claimed by Deists include Jefferson, Adams, and Ben Franklin. Both Jefferson and Adams at times may have believed in Deist ideology, but most certain did not at towards the end of their lives, writing to each other (once the old friends/enemies got back on writing terms) about how they looked forward to seeing loved ones at the Resurrection (which is not a typical Deist ideology). Ben Franklin may very well have been a Deist, but, as fits his character, he's somewhat of an enigma. While hardly the Christian role model, he was the one that suggested group Prayer for guidance as a course of action during an impasse in the Constitutional Convention. (Some have argued that the Convention was about to break up, and it was this prayer that helped keep the Convention on track). Again, prayer for guidance is hardly a typical Deist practice.

As for what is in the Constitution being typical of all religions, that is hardly so. The Freedoms of speech and Religion are no where to be found in most Islamic Countries for example.

 

[Lattice]

I gotta disagree with you on these issues. While there were Deists, Agnostics, and even a few out right Atheists among the group of men known as our "Founding Fathers", for the most part they were Christians. The idea that a large number were Deists and Agnostics was started after the fact by members of those groups. For example, Patrick Henry (famous for his "give me liberty, or give me death" speech), was claimed as a member by various Deists groups during the later years of his life. Henry, far from accepting this, was insluted that people would belive this about him, and fervently denied it. (there's a quote, not sure on it's accuracy, that's says Henry "would rather be considered a Tory than a Deist"). Other founding fathers claimed by Deists include Jefferson, Adams, and Ben Franklin. Both Jefferson and Adams at times may have believed in Deist ideology, but most certain did not at towards the end of their lives, writing to each other (once the old friends/enemies got back on writing terms) about how they looked forward to seeing loved ones at the Resurrection (which is not a typical Deist ideology). Ben Franklin may very well have been a Deist, but, as fits his character, he's somewhat of an enigma. While hardly the Christian role model, he was the one that suggested group Prayer for guidance as a course of action during an impasse in the Constitutional Convention. (Some have argued that the Convention was about to break up, and it was this prayer that helped keep the Convention on track). Again, prayer for guidance is hardly a typical Deist practice.

So you agree then that there were many spiritual beliefs back then. Thank you.

As for what is in the Constitution being typical of all religions, that is hardly so. The Freedoms of speech and Religion are no where to be found in most Islamic Countries for example.

Just like Christ would not have condoned the the Inquisition, their god would not condone the way that religion is now practiced.

 

[Denton]

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

The words of John Jay. John Jay was the first chief justice of the U.S. supreme court. He was also one of the authors of the Federalist Papers.

The people who fiercely argue that the founders were anything but Christians raise Thomas Jefferson up as the one who surely proves this nation was not founded as a Christian nation. Was he against Christianity?

Let's see...
"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty. A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband."

"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?"

The last quote of Jefferson. What is it that he was saying? This is something that is very important. You need to understand this, no matter your religion, but especially if your religion is no religion at all.

Who was it that granted all of mankind certain unalienable rights? Who was it that gave us the liberty or even obligation to break from the chains of tyranny? Come on, this is easy, it is in the Declaration of Independence! Now, to whom does that place the government inferior, and therefore lacking in authority to rescind those rights and liberties?
I hope you are tracking.
What makes those rights and liberties unalienable is that God gave them to you, and government doesn't have the authority to take them away.
The very first battle cry of the Revolutionary War?
No King But King Jesus!
No other king can rescind our rights.

Let's look at a couple more things, real quickly. Not too in depth, I just rolled out of bed, am waiting for the coffee and am then going to take the truck to get an alignment before going to work.

Our understanding of law was not pulled out of thin air. Remember, we went to war against the King of England, not the court. Our founding fathers understood full well common law. Common law was rooted in what religion? You guessed it. Christianity. When the laws of nature and nature's God is said, it isn't referring to Muhammad, Lucifer, Ba'al or any other deity but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Being England was the keeper of Christianity for a time, it is not surprising that Christian values were interwoven into the evolution of law.

Does this mean I have to be a Christian? Is that what Christian nation means?
You know, I used to think we Americans understood Christianity, even those who were not saved and those who call themselves Christian but are not very Christian-like. Fact is, we are sorely lacking in knowledge. Not only are we lacking in knowledge of the religion of our forefathers, we are lacking in knowledge of the foundation of our country. Furthermore, we don't even have the basic understanding of sociology, and by basic, I mean that which one should be able to figure out simply by observing people.

Christianity is not like Islam. One cannot be made to bow to Christ if one does not want to do so. Free will is viewed as one of the rights given us by our Creator. Yes, as with all rights, this one comes with responsibilities to do the right thing and consequences for veering down the wrong path. I am not writing this to preach but to give insight into the foundation of the nation and what "Christian nation" means, so I'll let you have a chat with your Reality World Christian buddy if you want to learn more about that. Just understand that you do not have to be a Christian in order to be an American. As was pointed out, not every old wig-wearing dude of 1776 was an orthodox follower of Jesus, right?

So, what does this mean? It means that our culture is based in the Christian ethics, morals and principles that the founding fathers knew to be the most solid foundation for any nation. The Author of these codes was the One who granted us our liberties, and it was important that we always remembered that, lest we allowed government the leeway to place the chains of tyranny upon us. It meant that our laws, reflected our understanding of who was the God of nature and that our laws never came into conflict with the laws of nature and nature's God. It meant that every culture has an adhesive that binds the people together, and that the founders of this nation viewed our Christian heritage to be the best glue to bind us together. It means when they used the word "religion" they were generally speaking of Christianity and its several sects, as they said, rather than today's version, denomination.

Does that means we have to stay a Christian nation? Does that mean we can't turn our collective backs on the God of the Ages, the Creator to which our forefathers referred? Does this mean we can't prefer rule of opinion over rule by law? Of course not! Again, we were given certain rights and liberties, and free will is one of them!

Just remember, there are always consequences to all we do. That pebble thrown into the water makes ripples. We are not seeing cultural ripples coming back as tsunamis.

"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

 

[Denton]

By the way, a disclaimer.

I am not a lawyer, nor am I a "college trained" historian. I am a free man who has spent the last couple of decades attempting to make sense of many governmental contradictions that should be clear to all who can think for themselves. This quest has driven me back to 1776 and beyond. It has cost me several dollars and a lot of time. It was well worth it, though, as it gave me the opportunity to view history in a way that is without the bias of the government education system. As my journey began long before I'd ever heard of such a thing as the internet, it was without the quick reference and often fallacy-filled web sites of today.
The down side is I have useless information stuck in my head, such as how to quickly get around a library using the Dewey decimal system.

 

[Lattice]

Who was it that granted all of mankind certain unalienable rights? Who was it that gave us the liberty or even obligation to break from the chains of tyranny? Come on, this is easy, it is in the Declaration of Independence! Now, to whom does that place the government inferior, and therefore lacking in authority to rescind those rights and liberties?

I don't have time to address all of your points, I have meat hanging that needs to be processed.

Unless you wish to dismiss my spiritual beliefs, you must acknowledge that I believe that the deities in my spirituality granted the rights we enjoy instead of your deity. For those who worship no deity they believe these liberties are granted only by the power of their own mind. If you want to say something to the effect of. "No, your deities do not exist, you're wrong, my God gave you those liberties!" Then you invalidate your own belief. But many of your faith seem to believe that if they do acknowledge my belief in my deities then they invalidate their own religion. I do not believe that to be the case. You are not saying that you believe what I believe, only that you understand that I am able to believe what I believe.

 

[Denton]

I do not validate your beliefs in any manner, and you obviously do not validate my beliefs. Your attempt to redefine is silly, at best. You are entitled to your beliefs and I did cover that, didn't I? Why yes, yes I did.

As I stated, that was not a piece for preaching, it was a piece to explain "Christian nation" as it pertains to our foundation. It has nothing to do with your beliefs or to get into some "My deities are better than yours" argument. I don't have time for that.

 

[Lattice]

I never said mine were better than yours. The moment I say that I invalidate my own beliefs.

And in a sense I did cover the argument that "this is a Christian nation". You just failed to see it.

 

[Denton]

I'm not here to cross religious swords with you, Lattice. As I said, I am not here to preach or convert. We are all big people. You have your belief and are entitled to it. I am not here to care what you think validates or invalidates your beliefs and I do not care to know what you think validates or invalidates my way of thinking. I merely gave a primer, so to speak, on the founding of the nation and where our rights are derived.
Without an understanding of that, we will surely lose those freedoms. That, in my opinion, is why the underpinnings of our nation have been intentionally targeted.

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles...to this we owe our free constitutions of government." - Noah Webster

We are quickly headed for enslavement because we were too lazy to protect our culture. Then again, most of us understand what is headed our way, which is why we have met at this board.

 

[mwhartman]

Many of you participated in the thread http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/...-do-when-they-come-collect-your-firearms.html Now, the discussion has shifted to this thread.

As indicated in rule # 3

3. No Religious, Racial, Sexist, abusive or foul language and disrespectful comments. This will not be tolerated. You will be silenced from the site depending on the nature and severity, if severe enough (according to the moderators), you could be banned. There will be a Religious as well as political section at one point and just remember that its ok to disagree with someone, but its down right rude and disrespectful to show any hatred, ill manners, belittle, sarcastic tone towards someones opinions.

discussing religion is not permissible.

We all have passion for our beliefs. There are forums that do allow discussing religion and one's beliefs on religion.

To those who migrated from http://www.prepperforums.net/forum/...-do-when-they-come-collect-your-firearms.html to here consider this a final warning. Creating new threads that violate our rules will result in a temporary or permanent ban from this site.

I am closing this thread.