Hello, I'm new to this forum, last night. As a child I was raised to expect that religious persecution would result in a time of trouble unlike anything there ever was. I even went to a very hard line religious boarding school, where we were taught very primative means of surviving that time until the Lord comes. I was taught how to raise a garden, livestock etc. I learned to can most vegatables and fruits with a very large stock pot heated over a large wood fired contained in a block enclosure. I learned to fabricate farm equipment and hand tools for that day. Yes, they taught me how to make a really cool knife and a machete. I learned to repair and maintain equipment, to weld, to build under less than ideal conditions and how to do as much as possible with as little as possible. Much of our training in high school was in preperation for the time of trouble, and Christ following return. To this day I truely believe that at some point that day will come, yet, I can't with authority say that it is the very next thing to happen. In the mean time we are still subject to the whole spectrum of disasters and casualties, any one of which can result in complete social and economic breakdown. If you are starting to think that I took that Sunday afternoon drive into the Twilight Zone, I went on to a career with the military, 21 years. I did 9 and a half with the Navy and the rest with the US Coast Guard. Trust me the subject has been raised. They have checked, and double checked. I am sane. During my Navy years I have watched as political unreat has resulted in a total collapse of order, food supplies and a stable way of living in other countries. In the Coast Guard I have watched as many of those same conditions have resulted from natural disasters and our crumbling infrastructure. I was with the DART team in D8. I have responded to floods, hurricanes, oil spills and a variety of situations that either did result in chaos, or quickly could have. First, I want to tell everyone here that I personally appreciate everything each one of you does to prevent becoming the reason that someone died trying to rescue you. It will never be said by government, but every time a person takes care of their own needs and security, they are one less person that our incompetant government will have to save, as if the government cared beyond the PR. Second, I agree with you folks in affirming that disaster is coming. It may not be the time of trouble that my church academy taught in the 1980's, or the fall of the dolar, but, trouble is headed at us. My third thing, after droning on about me, is that I suspect that most of you are making your preps for a world without the grid, and perhaps without electricity. As I mentioned, I am all about canning, and while the garden grows next spring, I plan to build a good sized wire rack to hold canning jars while they are in the pot. Meat doesn't can as safely, however, and killing a cow, deer or even goat is far more than a meal, even for those of you who are prepping in groups. Some things would be best frozen. Have many of you given thought to absorption refrigeration? By using LP or propane, freezing temps can be maintained without electricity. Small units are available for campers where electricity is usually in short supply. Unlike electrical power, LP can be stock piled, though it has it's own safety concerns. Larger systems are available ranging all the way up to the freezers for several meat proccesors. Is this something any of you have considered?