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a shotgun is a sucker's choice of a shtf longarm, almost as bad as a muzzleloader.

20K views 107 replies 46 participants last post by  randy grider 
#1 · (Edited)
find some solid cover, have a buddy stick out an 8" cardboard circle on a long stick, for 1-1.5 seconds, and then pull it back to cover, while you try to hit it, at a mere 35 yds, with slugs. you wont be hitting it with buckshot and a riot barrel, other than a 1 in 5 fluke. Try it for 5 shots. Most people are smarter than you. They'll be using cover, or be head on prone towards you, while wearing soft armor and a Kevlar helmet, neither of which your shotgun can pierce.

Put up 5 silohuettes, abreast in a line, 2m between each of the targets, at 25m, fire one rd of standard 9 pellet 00 buck at each, with a riot barrel. Do this REALLY fast, say in 2 seconds, from low ready to the 5th shot, as you'd need to do if you were to have a CHANCE of stopping 1 or more of them from firing back at you. Then go count the pellet- hits in the 10" chest circle. You'll be VERY underwhelmed. At that range, each pellet hits no harder than .38 lrn out of a snubby does( at 10 ft) So the 1-2 pellets that hit the vitals will absolutely NOT be likely to result in the "hittee" not being able to shoot back at you, maybe quite a large number of rds, actually. Your patterns wont be centered on the "man", just like they wont in combat. If you were the type to have that sort of skill, you'd be practicing with 30c each 223's, not $1 per rd buckshot and slugs Your inability/unwillingness to practice that much is why you rely on the buckshot pattern.

Sure, you can invest in a special tight choke, have all the pellets on the chest at 25m, but then they'll only be 3" wide at 10m, which is no real help at hitting. you'll not hit anything like that more than you'd hit with the rifle, and the rifle can be silenced and reach 3x as far as you can hope to do with 12 ga slugs. The 223 auto can have a .22lr conversion unit, for quiet foraging, indoor range use, 6c per shot practice, handling most shtf challenges (ie, head shots in the dark) using 60 gr subsonic Aquila .22 subsonic ammo. The parts swap between calibers takes just 10 seconds. The unit weighs just 3/4 lb, costs $300, fits in the thigh pocket of cammies. and it will group 2" at 50 yds or better and impact within 2" of the 223's POI at that distance, too. That's plenty good enough. for snapshooting training and slowfire hunting/sentry removal. . You can just "hold off" the amount needed to get the hit for a precision sort of shot. there's also a way to have both the 223 and the .22lr ammo zeroed to the sights, since you've got 2 wings on the rear sight.

So you can hit a dove on the wing with the 12 ga, so what? you get 2 ozs of meat, while calling in your killers and then you can't even handle them if all they's got is .22 rifles and know to use cover from 100 yds. I've taken literally thousands of birds with .22lr rifles and pistols. They all land and you'd need a scores of tjhem per day in order for them to feed you adequately, or you'd need several each ducks/pheasants, or an entire goose. The ducks and geese have some fat, so you MIGHT get 1000 calories per lb, but the amount of meat needed just doesn't justify the bulk, weight, expense, and noise, flash at night, lack of takedown concealment, lack of a chromed bore and chamber, lack of luminous sights, lack of ability to be used worth a hoot with just one hand. The pump gun is a real pita to use from the prone firing position, and is very prone to being short-stroked when the user is under lethal stress.
 
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#5 ·
And that is why I prefer a round or rifle that can do most everything vs only one thing.

Where I live, we have deer, coyotes, groundhogs, turkeys, moose and even black bear.

Per the late, great COL Jeff Cooper, I would rather have one rifle that can do it all well, vs a specialized rifle doing only one thing well.
 
#6 ·
I'm not sure where you got these assumptions: "They'll be using cover, or be head on prone towards you, while wearing soft armor and a Kevlar helmet, neither of which your shotgun can pierce."

1. Head on prone with soft armor offers no protection whatsoever to the wearer. There is no protection on the shoulders to speak of, . . . the throat and face are completely vulnerable, . . . as well as the hands and arms. That makes a target area of at least 16 inches wide, . . . 15 inches tall, . . . and all vulnerable.

2. A 12 gauge slug taking on a human being wearing a new or even next to new helmet, . . . will always be the winner. The slug's kinetic energy slamming against the helmet, . . . will slam the helmet into the wearer's head with a force that will crush the skull like a hammer doing in a robin's egg.

3. Soft armor standing up, chest forward, . . . will also lose to the 12 gauge, . . . which will bust ribs like they were uncooked spaghetti, . . . it will push the sternum almost in to where it kisses the backbone, . . . it will totally rupture the heart and / or aorta, . . . making for a death of extreme pain over several minutes.

Sorry, . . . computer commando, . . . you really don't know much, . . . period.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
#15 ·
Dwight is sppot on.

First there are some really good buckshot loads from Federal that will put the whole 9 pellet load in a six inch circle at 25 yards - did it with standard riot guns from 6 departments 20 years ago.

Second sabot slugs will punch thru level III armor and I believe will give level IV a he77 of a run for it (we only had level II vests (used) and put two together (four panels) and the sabot slug sailed right thru all for like butter.

Third rifle sights on a slug barrel and the federal buck shot and your run on 5 targets at 25 yards are 5 certifiable kills.

All three were performed by line officers with department issued weapons and ammo - technology of almost 20 years ago

You really do not have a clue on what takes place in the real world do you
 
#21 ·
Why am I shooting at someone behind cover? So the tree or what ever cover can eat my ammo? If I have cover let them make noise as long as I know where they are I do not care.

Don't know about you but I have taken deer, rabbits and used a shot gun with a slug to harvest a cow when I did not have access to anything but a pump 12 gauge shot gun.

How much hunting have you done?
 
#22 ·
I'm noticing a pattern with this member.
A bit overzealous (not necessarily a bad thing), but constantly one-posts a new thread and then abandons it completely. He never defends his position when called to task, nor responds in kind if he learned something new.
The bit is getting old.
 
#24 ·
Ladies and gentlemen,
If I may, Okey and his various other incarnations on other forums, highlights the survivalist mentality.
And all their shortcomings.

His posts illustrate the degree of their warped, twisted mentality.
Would you want this person as your neighbor?
Likely not.

So.
Read his posts with a degree of entertainment value in mind.
But there are those out there who actually believe it.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Shotguns are for upclose and personal. They also put food on the table. They have their uses and are a preferred fire arm at times. If you do not like it, do not use it. Just a tool in the tool box. I like options. If you only have a hammer, everything had better be a nail.
 
#27 ·
Shotguns are for upclose and personal. They also put food on the table. They have there uses and are a preferred fire arm at times. If you do not like it, do not use it. Just a tool in the tool box. I like options. If you only have a hammer, everything had better be a nail.
I'm not a shotgun fan, but they have a purpose for some. Not me, but for some.
I do have a shotgun, and it has slugs in the tube. They'll travel further than the up close and personal distance, and I am good with that weapon. Point is, there are people out there who will surprise bad guys when the time comes. Depending on the terrain. In Alabama, sure. In Oklahoma, probably not. There are variables.
 
#29 ·
find some solid cover, have a buddy stick out an 8" cardboard circle on a long stick, for 1-1.5 seconds, and then pull it back to cover, while you try to hit it, at a mere 35 yds, with slugs. you wont be hitting it with buckshot and a riot barrel, other than a 1 in 5 fluke.
Try it for 5 shots. Most people are smarter than you. They'll be using cover, or be head on prone towards you, while wearing soft armor and a Kevlar helmet, neither of which your shotgun can pierce.
They may be smarter than I am, but if I am using a riot gun, I will walk right into close range, and I will be brazen about it. Once I am there, I will blow their head off, or they will kill me instead; but, there will he a firefight, and I will probably win it. Buckshot and slugs are famous for killing man or animal. You were presumptuous in writing this, and wrong headed.
 
#30 ·
are you assuming that a person would only have a shotgun

most preppers understand using a hammer for a nail....

every weapon has a purpose....

I would like to point out that the sound of a pump shotgun being racked in the dark will make most bad guys lose at least 2 pounds

and the sight of a barrel big enough to fit your thumb pointed at your from a couple of feet away is a top pucker factor rating
 
#32 ·
Shotguns are very useful weapons. Small game, big game, and fine man eaters. OK, they may be wearing armor. Aim for the groin. You catch a load of buckshot in the pelvis, lower abdomen, and thighs you won't think about continuing a fight.
Good point! They will move much more slowly and thoughtfully if walking is an issue.
 
#33 ·
We live on a farm in a rural area.
Shotguns are a valuable tool, as are a Mini 14 for varmints and a 30-06 for serious work.

At the head of the bed, in case I have to boogie quickly out to the hen house at 2:00 AM, is a 20 ga SXS double barrel with a 3" #5 turkey load in one tube and a 3" #2 buck in the other.
Just inside the bedroom closet door is an Ithaca DS Police Special full of OO buck, a Remington 870 loaded with turkey loads, and a Stevens 67E full of #4 & #6 birdshot.

Then I've go my fun guns, my woods walking guns - single shots and bolt actions in .410, 20 ga, 16 ga, 12 ga.

I pity the guy who only has one shotgun. What fun is that?
 
#37 ·
We live on a farm in a rural area.
Shotguns are a valuable tool, as are a Mini 14 for varmints and a 30-06 for serious work.
I long for the day Ruger makes a Mini 14 that will take a PMAG
 
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#34 ·
Preparedness hit me within the last ten years as the opportunity to retire (mostly) at a healthy young age came upon me. I lived in a condo in the waterfront area of San Francisco. I inherited a 1911 used in WWII and a duck hunting Benelli shotgun my dad had hunted with and had just passed away. That shotgun made me feel a whole lot safer than that 1911 I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn with.
 
#35 ·
I can't remember if I posted in this troll thread before, but I will just say shotguns are awesome tools which can be used awesomely. There are other tools that are better at other things, but if I were limited to one gun for the rest of my life, it would be a shotgun.

An aside....for those people who think the shotgun is an across the room distance only weapon, go buy a shotgun if you don't own one, buy slugs, buckshot, game loads ...and start practicing. It will do much more than you think!
 
#36 ·
Like anything else, the right tool for the right job. Shotguns have their place. I have several that would come into play under a few different scenarios, particularly in home protection.
 
#40 ·
Shot gun is flexible. So much it can do. Hunters been killing deer with good slugs at 100-120 yard for years around here. Shot guns have put a lot of food on the table. If they can do that they can put BG down. No one weapon fills every need .
There will always be a shot in the corner around here.
Most people defending what is theirs will never take a shot over 100 yards if that far.
 
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