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a shotgun is a sucker's choice of a shtf longarm, almost as bad as a muzzleloader.

20K views 107 replies 46 participants last post by  randy grider 
#1 · (Edited)
find some solid cover, have a buddy stick out an 8" cardboard circle on a long stick, for 1-1.5 seconds, and then pull it back to cover, while you try to hit it, at a mere 35 yds, with slugs. you wont be hitting it with buckshot and a riot barrel, other than a 1 in 5 fluke. Try it for 5 shots. Most people are smarter than you. They'll be using cover, or be head on prone towards you, while wearing soft armor and a Kevlar helmet, neither of which your shotgun can pierce.

Put up 5 silohuettes, abreast in a line, 2m between each of the targets, at 25m, fire one rd of standard 9 pellet 00 buck at each, with a riot barrel. Do this REALLY fast, say in 2 seconds, from low ready to the 5th shot, as you'd need to do if you were to have a CHANCE of stopping 1 or more of them from firing back at you. Then go count the pellet- hits in the 10" chest circle. You'll be VERY underwhelmed. At that range, each pellet hits no harder than .38 lrn out of a snubby does( at 10 ft) So the 1-2 pellets that hit the vitals will absolutely NOT be likely to result in the "hittee" not being able to shoot back at you, maybe quite a large number of rds, actually. Your patterns wont be centered on the "man", just like they wont in combat. If you were the type to have that sort of skill, you'd be practicing with 30c each 223's, not $1 per rd buckshot and slugs Your inability/unwillingness to practice that much is why you rely on the buckshot pattern.

Sure, you can invest in a special tight choke, have all the pellets on the chest at 25m, but then they'll only be 3" wide at 10m, which is no real help at hitting. you'll not hit anything like that more than you'd hit with the rifle, and the rifle can be silenced and reach 3x as far as you can hope to do with 12 ga slugs. The 223 auto can have a .22lr conversion unit, for quiet foraging, indoor range use, 6c per shot practice, handling most shtf challenges (ie, head shots in the dark) using 60 gr subsonic Aquila .22 subsonic ammo. The parts swap between calibers takes just 10 seconds. The unit weighs just 3/4 lb, costs $300, fits in the thigh pocket of cammies. and it will group 2" at 50 yds or better and impact within 2" of the 223's POI at that distance, too. That's plenty good enough. for snapshooting training and slowfire hunting/sentry removal. . You can just "hold off" the amount needed to get the hit for a precision sort of shot. there's also a way to have both the 223 and the .22lr ammo zeroed to the sights, since you've got 2 wings on the rear sight.

So you can hit a dove on the wing with the 12 ga, so what? you get 2 ozs of meat, while calling in your killers and then you can't even handle them if all they's got is .22 rifles and know to use cover from 100 yds. I've taken literally thousands of birds with .22lr rifles and pistols. They all land and you'd need a scores of tjhem per day in order for them to feed you adequately, or you'd need several each ducks/pheasants, or an entire goose. The ducks and geese have some fat, so you MIGHT get 1000 calories per lb, but the amount of meat needed just doesn't justify the bulk, weight, expense, and noise, flash at night, lack of takedown concealment, lack of a chromed bore and chamber, lack of luminous sights, lack of ability to be used worth a hoot with just one hand. The pump gun is a real pita to use from the prone firing position, and is very prone to being short-stroked when the user is under lethal stress.
 
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#86 ·
find some solid cover, have a buddy stick out an 8" cardboard circle on a long stick, for 1-1.5 seconds, and then pull it back to cover, while you try to hit it, at a mere 35 yds, with slugs. you wont be hitting it with buckshot and a riot barrel, other than a 1 in 5 fluke. Try it for 5 shots. Most people are smarter than you. They'll be using cover, or be head on prone towards you, while wearing soft armor and a Kevlar helmet, neither of which your shotgun can pierce.

Put up 5 silohuettes, abreast in a line, 2m between each of the targets, at 25m, fire one rd of standard 9 pellet 00 buck at each, with a riot barrel. Do this REALLY fast, say in 2 seconds, from low ready to the 5th shot, as you'd need to do if you were to have a CHANCE of stopping 1 or more of them from firing back at you. Then go count the pellet- hits in the 10" chest circle. You'll be VERY underwhelmed. At that range, each pellet hits no harder than .38 lrn out of a snubby does( at 10 ft) So the 1-2 pellets that hit the vitals will absolutely NOT be likely to result in the "hittee" not being able to shoot back at you, maybe quite a large number of rds, actually. Your patterns wont be centered on the "man", just like they wont in combat. If you were the type to have that sort of skill, you'd be practicing with 30c each 223's, not $1 per rd buckshot and slugs Your inability/unwillingness to practice that much is why you rely on the buckshot pattern.

Sure, you can invest in a special tight choke, have all the pellets on the chest at 25m, but then they'll only be 3" wide at 10m, which is no real help at hitting. you'll not hit anything like that more than you'd hit with the rifle, and the rifle can be silenced and reach 3x as far as you can hope to do with 12 ga slugs. The 223 auto can have a .22lr conversion unit, for quiet foraging, indoor range use, 6c per shot practice, handling most shtf challenges (ie, head shots in the dark) using 60 gr subsonic Aquila .22 subsonic ammo. The parts swap between calibers takes just 10 seconds. The unit weighs just 3/4 lb, costs $300, fits in the thigh pocket of cammies. and it will group 2" at 50 yds or better and impact within 2" of the 223's POI at that distance, too. That's plenty good enough. for snapshooting training and slowfire hunting/sentry removal. . You can just "hold off" the amount needed to get the hit for a precision sort of shot. there's also a way to have both the 223 and the .22lr ammo zeroed to the sights, since you've got 2 wings on the rear sight.

So you can hit a dove on the wing with the 12 ga, so what? you get 2 ozs of meat, while calling in your killers and then you can't even handle them if all they's got is .22 rifles and know to use cover from 100 yds. I've taken literally thousands of birds with .22lr rifles and pistols. They all land and you'd need a scores of tjhem per day in order for them to feed you adequately, or you'd need several each ducks/pheasants, or an entire goose. The ducks and geese have some fat, so you MIGHT get 1000 calories per lb, but the amount of meat needed just doesn't justify the bulk, weight, expense, and noise, flash at night, lack of takedown concealment, lack of a chromed bore and chamber, lack of luminous sights, lack of ability to be used worth a hoot with just one hand. The pump gun is a real pita to use from the prone firing position, and is very prone to being short-stroked when the user is under lethal stress.
Well lets talk about just how stupid it is to have a machete...makes a terrible carving knife....doesn't cut your steak well. unwieldy in tight quarters. not nearly as good of a throwing knife as most others are. Balance is all off.

See when you compare apples and oranges....its easy to hit the pros and cons that you want.....but it doesn't lessen the argument that a person should eat fruits and veggies....

You sir, are making an apples and oranges comparison....but if your going to have one SHTF gun....have it be one that suits YOUR needs, not someone else's.
 
#87 ·
I strongly believe that a good shotgun should be considered for anyone’s arsenal. With different loads, barrels, and on some shotguns chokes, it can be used to take any game in North America. Although possible to take pheasants, geese, and ducks with a rifle, most people would have better luck with a shotgun. It can also be used for self defense. I own several shotguns and in addition to their long barrels own a smooth bore 20” slug barrel and a rifled barrel for shooting sabot rounds for longer distances.

I have different firearms for most situations that I can think of, including shotguns. If someone could only own one firearm I would not criticize them if they chose a shotgun, especially if they lived in an area where because of trees/brush was heavy enough that in most cases their visibility was limited. Yes, there are disadvantages to shotguns including limited range and the weight of the ammunition, there are advantages to owning one because of their versatility. One last thought, I believe that some people focus entirely on self defense and ignore hunting for putting food on the table. Personally I try to cover both.
 
#88 ·
The right tool for the right job. Shotguns are among the many tools I have at my disposal.
 
#90 · (Edited)
Honestly my shotgun is the go-to home defender. Should we have to fall back, regroup and up-arm there are battle rifles and so forth. I really want an Mp-5. I still think the little subgun is the perfect CQB weapon. Rifled slug at 30 yards? all day long in a paper plate.
 
#92 ·
True story. Back in the early 70's, my best friend bought a motorcycle from a finance company. He got a hell of a deal on this because he had to repo it. As he was riding away on the bike, the guy shot him with a shotgun. My friend was far enough away that he only caught some of the buckshot. He went to the ER and they told him there was nothing they could do for him. The buckshot was scattered across his back and legs. They said eventually the shot will work it's way out.

For a long time afterwards my friend would be walking across the room and, at times, you would hear a BB bounce across the floor. It was several years before we quit hearing the BB's.
 
#96 ·
Another thought on shotguns.

I used to deer hunt in a state that was bow, ML, or shotgun only. For shotgun I used an old M37 Ithaca deerslayer w/26" slug barrel, not rifled, w/1 oz foster slugs. I have double lunged deer out to 90 paces. A 1 oz slug leaves a hole you can nearly see through.

I moved on to traditional ML for deer in that state. A .54 PRB from a rifle gives a pass through on deer to > 125 yds, as far as most shots and as far as I like to shoot with opens.

Here is a 5 shot group from a traditional .50 at 50 yds with opens shooting a 375 gr conical. Lyman book said load should be ~ 1400 fps.

Gas Automotive wheel system Auto part Circle Precision sports


There are guys out west, shooting deer/elk/pronghorns with similar loads in traditional .45/.50 MLers, based on TC Hawkens, at 300 yds with open/peep sights.

There are truly long range traditional MLers that hit things at 1000 yds, w/open sights. Gibbs and Whitworth repros.
 
#98 ·
I have a TON of experience with the 12 gauge platform. buckshot is lethal. I prefer 00 buck at 25 yards and in. A rifled slug at 100 yards with a riot shotgun is doable every time with a bead sight. You just have to know your gun. Ghost rings are better.
 
#99 ·
About a decade ago I picked up an Ithaca Model 37 DS Featherweight Police Special for $300.
This is a rifle sighted, 12 ga, 18" barrel, open choke sweetheart. Commonly called a "riot gun".
Right now she's loaded with 3 OO buck followed by 2 one oz slugs.
 
#100 · (Edited)
Oh yeah. My single shot full choke 12 gauge killed a coyote at 40 yards with number 9 low base low bid skeet loads. Dont make me show pics of the flock of dead winter turkeys. Anyway I personally shot a .12 slug into the trunk of a full sized car at eye level and saw where it came out through the front grill. Dont think it went through the engine prob just bent around. Could not check cause it was a inoperative car used for shooting drills. Shotguns are dangerous. lol. Not to enough mention my old neighbor up in Wilbarger county who took a pretty close dose of birdwhot to his face by one of his careless pals. He had bbs in his lips for a long time and embedded in his gunstock forever. He was not a happy camper. Or a dear old state Trooper who took a real close dose of birdshot to the chest while dove hunting with his young son. They say he ran for a bit then keeled over dead. Sure that kid still feels like an a-hole over that.
 
#104 ·
Rifles such as AR15 and the like have there place. To say a 12ga shotgun is useless is foolish. With the right load /barrel you can shoot slugs that are capable of 1” inch groups at 100yards . You can hunt large & small game etc. and as a defensive weapon it is a valuable tool. The only problem with the 12ga is ammunition capacity. Weight of the ammo. Honestly I’m in shotgun country here most everyone has a 12ga or 20 ga. .
That said a .22 has its place and advantages. Use what you have use it well. You will survive. Also in a SHTF outside of dangerous game, a firearm should be used little as possible . Traps , snares and fishing implements will be more effective. May even consider a bow or a crossbow.
Use the firearm as the last resort.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#106 ·
find some solid cover, have a buddy stick out an 8" cardboard circle on a long stick, for 1-1.5 seconds, and then pull it back to cover, while you try to hit it, at a mere 35 yds, with slugs. you wont be hitting it with buckshot and a riot barrel, other than a 1 in 5 fluke. Try it for 5 shots. Most people are smarter than you. They'll be using cover, or be head on prone towards you, while wearing soft armor and a Kevlar helmet, neither of which your shotgun can pierce.

Put up 5 silohuettes, abreast in a line, 2m between each of the targets, at 25m, fire one rd of standard 9 pellet 00 buck at each, with a riot barrel. Do this REALLY fast, say in 2 seconds, from low ready to the 5th shot, as you'd need to do if you were to have a CHANCE of stopping 1 or more of them from firing back at you. Then go count the pellet- hits in the 10" chest circle. You'll be VERY underwhelmed. At that range, each pellet hits no harder than .38 lrn out of a snubby does( at 10 ft) So the 1-2 pellets that hit the vitals will absolutely NOT be likely to result in the "hittee" not being able to shoot back at you, maybe quite a large number of rds, actually. Your patterns wont be centered on the "man", just like they wont in combat. If you were the type to have that sort of skill, you'd be practicing with 30c each 223's, not $1 per rd buckshot and slugs Your inability/unwillingness to practice that much is why you rely on the buckshot pattern.

Sure, you can invest in a special tight choke, have all the pellets on the chest at 25m, but then they'll only be 3" wide at 10m, which is no real help at hitting. you'll not hit anything like that more than you'd hit with the rifle, and the rifle can be silenced and reach 3x as far as you can hope to do with 12 ga slugs. The 223 auto can have a .22lr conversion unit, for quiet foraging, indoor range use, 6c per shot practice, handling most shtf challenges (ie, head shots in the dark) using 60 gr subsonic Aquila .22 subsonic ammo. The parts swap between calibers takes just 10 seconds. The unit weighs just 3/4 lb, costs $300, fits in the thigh pocket of cammies. and it will group 2" at 50 yds or better and impact within 2" of the 223's POI at that distance, too. That's plenty good enough. for snapshooting training and slowfire hunting/sentry removal. . You can just "hold off" the amount needed to get the hit for a precision sort of shot. there's also a way to have both the 223 and the .22lr ammo zeroed to the sights, since you've got 2 wings on the rear sight.

So you can hit a dove on the wing with the 12 ga, so what? you get 2 ozs of meat, while calling in your killers and then you can't even handle them if all they's got is .22 rifles and know to use cover from 100 yds. I've taken literally thousands of birds with .22lr rifles and pistols. They all land and you'd need a scores of tjhem per day in order for them to feed you adequately, or you'd need several each ducks/pheasants, or an entire goose. The ducks and geese have some fat, so you MIGHT get 1000 calories per lb, but the amount of meat needed just doesn't justify the bulk, weight, expense, and noise, flash at night, lack of takedown concealment, lack of a chromed bore and chamber, lack of luminous sights, lack of ability to be used worth a hoot with just one hand. The pump gun is a real pita to use from the prone firing position, and is very prone to being short-stroked when the user is under lethal stress.
spoken like a true key board ..... If you'd ever tried one of todays shotguns with modern ammo, you'd be surprised as to what can be accomplished. Trust me on this, we did it back in '06 when I went thru the instructor academy.

Also for a person who can only afford one gun (like someone just starting out in life on a limited budget) a shotgun is a very good compromise weapon and some can be had new for under $300. Try that with one of your matel toys.

Lastly it can be used (the pumps and single barrels) with any type of ammo that one can fit in the chamber. from target loads to blanks to armor piercing (yeah the Sabot pointed slugs).

And just remember it's was the family fowling piece and smooth bore muskets that gave the red coats one heck of a licking at Lexington, concord, bunker hill and finally at yorktown.
 
#108 ·
If i could have only 1 gun it would be a .22 rifle.
Great for small game, and will work for big game with head shots, not ideal but will work for self defense, ammo cheap and you can carry several thousand rounds. Its cheapness means you can practice alot, and become good with it. Its best all around.
 
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