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Possible changes DITCHING THE M4

This is a discussion on Possible changes DITCHING THE M4 within the HandGuns, Pistols and Revolvers, Long Rifles, Shotguns, SKS, AK, AR forums, part of the Weapons, Protection, Self Defense, Hand to Hand Combat category; Maybe you infantry sorts can explain (I just carried a dinky .38 in the missile business) but why couldn't we keep the M4 and simply ...

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Thread: Possible changes DITCHING THE M4

  1. #21
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    Maybe you infantry sorts can explain (I just carried a dinky .38 in the missile business) but why couldn't we keep the M4 and simply change out the upper, depending on the need? If you have a specialty assignment/mission, would not a bigger caliber/longer barrel work on the existing lower? I personally swap between 5.56 carbine & 300 blackout SBR uppers. Just seems there is no one perfect choice so why make one choice? Why not have some limited options?
    Last edited by Redneck; 05-19-2017 at 09:35 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck View Post
    Maybe you infantry sorts can explain (I just carried a dinky .38 in the missile business) but why couldn't we keep the M4 and simply change out the upper, depending on the need? If you have a specialty assignment/mission, would not a bigger caliber/longer barrel work on the existing lower? I personally swap between 5.56 carbine & 300 blackout SBR uppers. Just seems there is no one perfect choice so why make one choice? Why not have some limited options?
    The 300 BLK is a joke and fun thing for folks to play with. Zero use for combat.
    Soldiers need to train with the weapons platforms they will use. There is not one day of training time to be wasted on weapons that will not be used.Hands gun and infantry are just a minor side line. Server no real use never really have. Machine gunner carries one as a last resort. Some officers and low threat security.
    The 5.56 in the M4 platform is a compromise that fits a wide range of deployment. Contrary to what you hear it has and still does a great job.
    There is no real world advantage between a M4 with a 16.5 barrel and a 20 inch. The reports of more accurate shots is due to the distance between iron sights and not really any advantage to the barrel length.
    Iron sight shooting is yesterdays news. Long sense been replaced with reflex sight/Red Dot that place more rounds on target faster. In the require ranges.
    Preach iron all anyone wishes it is at best second place and that is a distant second.
    The m4 platform works.
    The m16A4 version the last of the M16 was a basic M16 with the muilt use rail system. What you now see in the M4. When they compared the 20 inch to the M4 it did not take long for the M4 to win out . Keep your eyes open once in awhile you will still see an M16A4.
    At one time or another I carried every version of the M16 and the M4. Carried an M14, and an M24 for a short time. If I am heading out I grab a M4 with a aim point or ACOG .
    The M4 could be improved with a gas piston system. That however causes another issue, more parts. The DI system is one that has proven it's self with less parts. Any advantage the Gas piston offers is lost to that. Big difference in what you take to the range and carry every single day in a deployment.
    Last edited by Smitty901; 05-19-2017 at 10:02 AM.
    Karl Marx said, "Destroy their culture, rewrite their history. Ruin their art and literature, and defame their heroes, by offering fabrications to scandalize that which they considered good.
    After reading this Obama said I am on it.

  3. #23
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    I was not suggesting the military use 300 blackout... just stating what I shoot. Seems the M4 shooting 5.56 does a fine job in many situations, so why not just have a different upper for when the mission calls for something more specific, such as longer range engagements?

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  5. #24
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    This was a hot topic in 2000-2003 then deployments again drowned it out. There is always talk about the next plat form. Our involvement with NATO drives some of that. That is why we ended up with the 9mm.
    As for switching barrels dual use weapons never pan out. Soldiers train for the weapon they use. They also train on the other weapons in their unit. There is no room for adding more confusion.
    Our forces have weapons that cover every need and do it well. The naysayers are just that. Our use of the M4 platform has come out on top time and time again.
    Soldier today have a almost endless list of options for the weapon they have now. Heck we even refer to the M4 as a weapons system. It is all soldiers can do to keep up with that. I still remember when we had nothing but iron sights. Then specialized reddot reflex sights some times, Then one sight issued per Squad . The one for every soldier and on and on. The days of an infantry soldier with boots and rifle have long sense been over. Now they even carry Ravens with them. And again forget the internet BS they work. The weapons need to fit the fight and most of these high end specialized rifles don't. The M4 5.56 still does.
    Karl Marx said, "Destroy their culture, rewrite their history. Ruin their art and literature, and defame their heroes, by offering fabrications to scandalize that which they considered good.
    After reading this Obama said I am on it.

  6. #25
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    300BLK has its place. Its not a joke of a round. The 300blk met certain requirements, CQB suppressed, and supersonic its not a bad round either, has pretty darn good ballistics better than a 556.
    But, to each his own.
    Military , US, should stick with what it has in stock, and train train train more for shooters.
    RedLion likes this.

  7. #26
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    Now Socom, I don't claim to be the master armorer that you are nor have I even been in the military but as an NRA certified instructor for over 35 years I do have some experience in how recoil affects some shooters. As a life long hunter I have some experience with carrying an overweight overpowered rifle when a lighter weight rifle would do. Time and wisdom has taught me there is little need for a 30/06 on the local deer and even a subsonic .300blk cleanly drops that 130 lb target at 80 yds.

    Now you may choose to lug that 11 lb. rifle with it's 80 heavy shells over yonder hill but I'd prefer to carry a weapon that is adequate to the task, and the lighter weight weapon allows for a larger ammo load out. I'm sure in your many fierce battles over decades slogging through the mud and snow there may have been a time or two when you wished the ammo weighed a bit less so you could carry more.

    Long ago a 230 gn Ashtray at 850 fps was the ultimate man-stopper and I still love mine but... Modern ammunition and bullets now allows a lightweight 9mm to be just as effective. I believe in taking advantages of proven modern advances. If you haven't already seen one try a horseless carriage sometime. They are really convenient and there is no asshole to fart at you like that mule pulled cart you usually ride along in.

    how about we just agree to disagree? @SOCOM42
    Last edited by John Galt; 05-19-2017 at 09:12 PM.
    Redneck and RedLion like this.
    Talk is cheap, actions count.

  8. #27
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    DAMN,,, that last paragraph was a good one! I'm almost proud of it. But SOCOM,,, all respect. And thank you for your service.
    Talk is cheap, actions count.

  9. #28
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    What civilians choose for their own long gun and caliber is all together different that fielding 4 million rifles in combat with a standard cartridge.

    You may may be an NRA instructor, so was I in the past, also a military small arm instructor.

    I am not arguing with you and the deer hunter, I agree with you.

    My viewpoint is from a military perspective.

    The flawed point you made was upper swap out, fine for a civilian, NEVER HAPPEN in the standard (straight leg) military.

    Also the military does not give a damn if the recoil bothers you, how many survived it in 1898, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan?

    Millions, again millions, 30-40 Craig's, 1903's, 1903A3's, Johnson Automatics, M1 Garands, M14's,

    was simple, live with it and lean to shoot it or die on the battlefield.

    No need for you to be a smart ass on my background or what slogging I have done, unlike you, I and others here did it.

    Your right I did have times when I wished I could have carried something lighter, and it was an M60, at least I carried something.

    To enlighten your ignorance, the rifles did not weigh 11 pounds, 9-1/2 for the Garand and 8-1/2 for the M14.

    Further your round count is off also, 80 in the cartridge belt 48 in a bandoleer, and 8 in the rifle was standard for the M1.

    For the M14 it was 20 in rifle 80 in 4 mags and one bandoleer of 60.

    I'll tell you this and RPD can back it up, at 3-6 hundred yards you hit someone with either they are going down.

    And with those rounds from the M1 and M14 you can turn cover into concealment.

    The 5.56 and M4 does the job, perfectly? no but none ever will resolve all problems, that's what they have a 105MM Howitzer for.

    Oh, by the way, I am not claiming to be a master anything, but I was an instructor at an US army armorer's school.

    Yeah I guess your right about a horseless carriage, How about a 2015 Grand Cherokee and a 2014 liberty?

    Oh yeah my carriage is a 1955 Ford Thunderbird fully restored, my other carriage was a Piper PA28R200 full IFR.

    I tried to convey the impracticality of your viewpoints, not to be an asshole, It was evident you had no clue and still don't.
    Last edited by SOCOM42; 05-19-2017 at 11:08 PM.
    Maol9 and rice paddy daddy like this.

  10. #29
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    Not much to say after that!
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." - 'Mad Dog' James Mattis - Call Sign 'Chaos'

    "In the land of milk and honey you must put them on the table" - Steely Dan

  11. #30
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    Well OK there is this!!!

    Middle America Strike!!!

    July 4th to July 11th!!!

    The Mule sits down!!!!

    Tell the Truth!!!

    No More MSM Lies!!!
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." - 'Mad Dog' James Mattis - Call Sign 'Chaos'

    "In the land of milk and honey you must put them on the table" - Steely Dan

 

 
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